It was Oct. 28, 2013, and Leslie Frazier was well on his way to being fired by the Vikings. He was 1-6 and giving his morning-after account of how his defensive scheme — known for its simplicity — had allowed Aaron Rodgers to complete 12 of 12 third- and fourth-down passes for 187 yards, eight first downs and two touchdowns in another loss.

Poor Les. The scheme — a 4-3, Cover 2 look with few blitz packages — essentially was the same as it was in 2009, when his defense sacked Rodgers 14 times in two wins.

Les had left the podium after taking too much blame when this reporter approached with a trip down memory lane and a discussion about the relative value of scheme vs. personnel.

Frazier played cornerback in one of the more exotic, blitz-crazed and fabled defenses in NFL history. Da Bears of 1985 rode that "46 Defense" to a 15-1 record, the defensive scoring title (12.4 points allowed per game), two playoff shutouts and a 46-10 Super Bowl win.

Buddy Ryan was the famed architect of that defense, which had three Hall of Famers and nary a weak link. Ten years later, using the same scheme, Buddy was fired as head coach in Arizona after going 4-12 and finishing last in scoring defense (26.4).

So, Les, scheme vs. personnel? You make the call.

"Give me the personnel any day," Frazier said on that day in 2013. "All great teams, it's the personnel. Even when a coach makes a bad call, if you got the right personnel, they make it right."

That comment did not sit well with then-General Manager Rick Spielman. Spielman and Frazier had been at odds over personnel, particularly Spielman's release of cornerback Antoine Winfield before the season.

Most of Frazier's better defenders were either past their prime, too green or injured that season. Harrison Smith, a second-year safety at the time, missed half the season in a secondary so thin that punt returner Marcus Sherels started three games.

Frazier finished 5-10-1 and last in points allowed (30.0). The game had passed him by. Or so they said.

In 2017, Frazier found the perfect fit when he was hired as defensive coordinator by like-minded Bills coach Sean McDermott, whose rise to the head coaching ranks was fueled by a similar keep-it-simple, blitz-sparingly approach as Panthers defensive coordinator.

"I remember in Washington with Kirk [Cousins] going into Carolina and taking one of the worst beatings I've had in this league from a Sean McDermott-coached defense," said Vikings offensive coordinator Wes Phillips, whose offense faces the Bills in Buffalo on Sunday. "And they weren't playing a ton of different coverages."

Frazier makes the calls in Buffalo. McDermott, obviously, has veto powers, but word is they're usually on the same page.

"First and foremost, I don't think they try to reinvent the wheel," Vikings coach Kevin O'Connell said. "A lot of times, you can know where they are and what they're doing, but they play really hard and they're really good players. They have great technique and fundamentals."

They've also led the league in scoring defense the last two years, giving up 17.0 last year and 14.8 this year.

"It was always preached to us, 'We have to do us better than they can do them,'" said former Bills and current Vikings nose tackle Harrison Phillips. "Nothing exotic. Just, 'We are going to do our 1/11th better than they do their 1/11th.'"

Sometimes, it doesn't work. Like the infamous final 13 seconds of regulation in last year's playoff loss at Kansas City.

With the right personnel, however, it works more often than not. Like it did in 2018 when Frazier and the Bills were 16 ½-point underdogs heading into a game at U.S. Bank Stadium.

The Bills were 0-2. McDermott had taken the play-calling duties from Frazier in Week 2 but gave them back the Monday before the Vikings game. Six days later, he handed Frazier a game ball after a 27-6 victory.

"It's not about me," Frazier said that day. "It's about the players. It's always about the players."