Comments: How alcohol foils rape investigations
Read the 111 comments in response to the third part of the Denied Justice series.
dtosell AUG. 13, 18 3:02 PM
All of you who think women often make up stories because they regret sleeping with someone must hang out with some doozies. I'm a woman with many friends, both men and women, and I have never heard any of them speak of this happening either to them or by them. I have known several women friends who woke up after partying to find someone raping them. They never reported the rapes, as far as I know. After reading all of the victim blaming and shaming here, I can see why they wouldn't want to be dragged through the mud like that. How about men learn how not to rape, rather than women having to be on guard at every second of every day?
sallygirl AUG. 13, 18 2:00 PM
I know if I made a poor decision to drink and then "consented" to have sex with someone, while highly intoxicated, that the very next day, or soon thereafter, I would definitely call the police to report that I was raped because I could not wait to be treated like crap by the criminal justice system and to ruin another person's life. And, you know how some women are - they like to waste law enforcement's time - they like to be abused - to be victims - Right? Please...
wbsknox AUG. 13, 18 1:57 PM
Another example of the dictum that drinking can make any problem worse.
lorentjd AUG. 13, 18 8:44 AM
QUOTE: At least seven states, including Wisconsin, outlaw having intercourse with a person who is too intoxicated to consent. California makes it a crime when a victim cannot consent due to “any intoxicating or anesthetic substance.” Wisconsin prohibits sexual contact “with a person who is under the influence of an intoxicant to a degree which renders that person incapable of giving consent.” If that was the law of the land, then millions of people would be mutually raping each other every year.
fuhrmann AUG. 13, 18 11:13 AM
@lorentjd How intoxicated is too intoxicated?
aladent AUG. 13, 18 3:21 PM
@lorentjd Does that apply to females and drunk males, too?
muckandgrind AUG. 13, 18 8:42 AM
Very tough topic because this is obviously a very difficult crime to prove, especially when alcohol is involved. There is just so much gray area involved. It's never acceptable to take take advantage of someone who has been drinking, but it should also never be acceptable for someone to accuse someone else of sexual assault just because they may regret having had consensual sex when they BOTH might have had a little too much to drink the night before.
eman2001 AUG. 12, 18 4:50 PM
These are heart-rending articles, but really could use some more balance. The alleged rapists aren't allowed to tell their version of what happened in nearly all instances. Surely they don't want their faces shown because their lives will be ruined by the allegations, but can't we get their side of the story?
A02MIT AUG. 12, 18 7:25 PM
@eman2001 Aren't allowed? by whom? I'd love to hear what the Lyft driver has to say
ChadBorman SEP. 3, 18 11:41 AM
@eman2001 Definitely. I mean, it's standard protocol for a Lyft driver to walk you to your bedroom and have sex with you. Nothing at all unusual or unprofessional about that. How could it possibly not be consensual? Are you for real?
prometheus1 AUG. 12, 18 3:44 PM
Beware the unintended consequences of the legislation you propose. If you change the law to make it easier for drunk women who "think something happened" but don't actually remember what occurred, to make career ending allegations, you will find organizations like Uber and Lyft will instruct their drivers to refuse service to any woman who appears drunk to protect themselves from false accusations. That will lead to far more serious harm to many people, especially women, when they find themselves having to choose between driving drunk or not having a ride at all.
aodabuse AUG. 12, 18 5:23 PM
False accusations? Maybe don't have sex with the people you drive, especially against consent.
athe0007 AUG. 13, 18 8:04 AM
@aodabuse That goes without saying, but the article is about proving beyond a reasonable doubt.
muckandgrind AUG. 13, 18 8:53 AM
@aodabuse I would agree that Lyft or Uber drivers should have a code of conduct that prohibits them from engaging in sexual acts with their passengers. We also don't know if the sex was or wasn't consensual. Without good evidence, it really is a "he said, she said" case.
aodabuse AUG. 13, 18 2:53 PM
It's sad that there has to actually be a code of conduct written explicitly stating to not engage in sexual contact with a rider. I understand that's where we're at, but my goodness.
lorentjd AUG. 12, 18 2:10 PM
I recommend Emily Yoffe's essay on this subject. Google this: "sexual assault and drinking" Yoffe And you will see her 2013 slate essay. It's worth reading.
jkbw55 AUG. 12, 18 12:42 PM
The way the law stands right now, it is difficult to prosecute. It is possible to craft a law surrounding DNA? Can we have a database containing the DNA results from all reported rapes. If the same DNA keeps popping up in different women who've reported rape there is a predatory pattern. Perhaps a special task force to investigate all the rapes after one person's DNA has showed up in three?, five? different complaints that could have occurred in different jurisdictions? There must be someway to at least lower the number of rapes done by men who have gotten away with it.
prometheus1 AUG. 12, 18 3:45 PM
@jkbw55 Perhaps women should wear body cameras like police officers do. Then we would have a film record of what occurred and whether consent was given.
gwbuddy AUG. 12, 18 4:48 PM
@prometheus1 @jkbw55 Nice idea, but probably "Illegal", unless both the man, and the woman, consent to being video recorded. I've learned that you can't even video record a Birthday Party without getting the written consent of everyone being video recorded.
prometheus1 AUG. 13, 18 8:46 AM
@gwbuddy @prometheus1 @jkbw55True...but it would put the question of consent to bed once and for all.
It-12345 AUG. 12, 18 11:35 AM
Women (not all) are just plain stupid. They will report rape not because they were raped but because they regret their own actions. Or they enjoy being a victim (yes, I said it). I know females who were abused by their ex, ended up getting a restraining order, etc and then happily goes right back into a relationship with the person who severely abused them. People need to hold themselves accountable for their own actions.
Geezer1976 AUG. 12, 18 1:47 PM
Or a person just like the one who abused them. Over and over again.
prometheus1 AUG. 12, 18 10:57 AM
The Constitution is very clear that the burden of proof lies on the accuser and that the default position is that an accused is innocent until proven guilty. Attempts to reverse this will not succeed just because women make poor decisions. To the case in point...the woman says she does not remember anything and thus could not have given consent. If that is so...she does NOT know if she gave consent. Further...how can the court expect someone to "know" whether someone who is intoxicated but behaving coherently is legally capable of giving consent? They are coherent enough to order drinks, interact with others, request a Lyft ride, etc....that suggests the ability to consent. By the logic the accuser is using...she could argue that she was kidnapped because the Lyft driver gave her the ride home when she was not able to give consent. This cannot stand. The solution to these unfortunate situations lies with the statement the officer made, Bet you wish you had been more careful. If you are alone you do NOT get intoxicated to the point where you are incoherent. The police have limited resources which must be focused on cases that are viable.
sting11 AUG. 12, 18 10:59 AM
A02MIT AUG. 12, 18 11:04 AM
kirby96 AUG. 12, 18 11:21 AM
Wow what? You didn’t know the constitution worked that way? Or wow you are shocked that someone would dare suggest that we adhere to that pesky constitution?
A02MIT AUG. 12, 18 12:04 PM
@kirby96 my wow was due to this "Attempts to reverse this will not succeed just because women make poor decisions. " I don't see many comments like this about men who are drunk and then become the victim of a crime.
kirby96 AUG. 12, 18 2:18 PM
That’s because there is no similar focus on crimes against men (even though they are more likely to be the victims of violent crime). I can guarantee you that in cases where male victims of crime are drunk the conviction rate plummets just like it does in the case of rape. Getting extremely drunk IS a poor decision, regardless of your gender.
A02MIT AUG. 12, 18 7:27 PM
@kirby96 I'm not talking about convictions, I'm talking about the comments here. They seem very judgemental and almost angry at women.
prometheus1 AUG. 13, 18 8:48 AM
@kirby96 Similarly, we find no "special consideration" needed for when a women drives drunk. We don't blame the tree when the woman who hits it claims she couldn't give consent when she hits it.
prometheus1 AUG. 13, 18 8:49 AM
@A02MIT @kirby96 It seems to me accusing someone of rape when you don't remember whether you gave consent is pretty angry and judgemental.
A02MIT AUG. 13, 18 7:02 PM
@prometheus1 do you believe these women were raped?
peggybenkert AUG. 12, 18 3:18 PM
@prometheus1 OMG. I don't what is more offensive the comment or people who liked the comment. By your logic, since she was drunk she deserved to be raped?? The people who agreed with writer shame on you!!
kirby96 AUG. 12, 18 4:08 PM
Please quote the part where the poster says that drunk women deserve to be raped. I must have missed it. To be clear, I’ll state it explicitly: no one deserves to be raped. Period.
The poster is merely pointing out that it is hard to convict people if the victim is drunk. Male, female, rape, shootings, etc. we have a presumption of innocence and if the only witness is drunk, a conviction is harder to come by. Not exactly a controversial view.
I’ll bet your work place doesn’t allow you to show up drunk. Why? You will likely deliver work that is flawed and unreliable, if it’s even intelligible. Same thing in a criminal case.
peggybenkert AUG. 12, 18 5:44 PM
@kirby96 The poster agreed with the policeman who said she should have been more careful. The implication is there. If I hire a lyft driver (or anyone else to drive me home), they should act professionally. Raping an individual in an intoxicated state should be persecuted. Also your comparison to my workplace made no sense!!
Subtext AUG. 12, 18 9:45 PM
@peggybenkert @kirby96 Persecuted is right. Since she doesn't remember what happened, she could have asked the driver to help her upstairs. She could have asked him to stay the night. He could have asked her if she wanted him to come upstairs with her and she might have said yes. She might have asked him to "cuddle". The point is--she doesn't know.
worker11811 AUG. 13, 18 10:13 AM
@prometheus1 How about this point, if you are a paid car driver of any type do your job and don't engage in any way other than required professionally with your clients. Do you have sex at work during work hours with people and expect that to be seen as appropriate? Unless you work in the porn industry, no. There is NO argument in which the Lyft driver is right under any circumstances professionally. Consent, even if it was given does not even matter in the workplace it is just plain a violation and grounds for immediate termination. In other words, not ever acceptable workplace behavior and yes, if your job is to give rides for money, that is a workplace.
lynneploetz AUG. 12, 18 9:52 AM
Minnesota laws need to change and the sex crimes units need to be cleaned out and staffed with women detectives and investigators. This series outlines horrible situations in which victims--sober or not--are treated as liars and not as victims.Thanks to the Strib for excellent reporting and to the brave women sharing their stories in their own words. I wept listening to them and am grateful I was never in their shoes.
sting11 AUG. 12, 18 10:52 AM
@lynneploetz if the victim is drunk they are not going to be believed. . . . . because they may not remember clearly what happened . . . . . . it's a fact that alcohol impairs memory and perception of events . . . .. . . there are women who simply regret their own behavior . . . . .refuse to take responsibility for their role in the incident and therefore blame others . . . . . . . and call it rape.
sting11 AUG. 12, 18 10:58 AM
@lynneploetz Rape is never ok . . . . . . but if the victim gets drunk it's going to be almost impossible to prove . . . . . . so don't so drunk and be careful!
peggybenkert AUG. 12, 18 3:19 PM
@sting11 @lynneploetz but men get get drunk. Talk about a double standard.
jflynch1 AUG. 12, 18 4:58 PM
@peggybenkert @sting11 @lynneploetzBut only one has to give consent- double standard
Subtext AUG. 12, 18 9:47 PM
@peggybenkert @sting11 @lynneploetzAnd they also sometimes become the victims of a crime due to their vulnerable state.
prometheus1 AUG. 12, 18 10:58 AM
@lynneploetz Not likely. Women detectives and investigators operate under the same law as men. They are also familiar with the behavior of women in these circumstances. They are LESS likely to believe the morning after regrets than male detectives.
dar000 AUG. 12, 18 11:11 AM
@prometheus1 @lynneploetz What is your basis for this assertion?
mobocracy AUG. 13, 18 6:35 AM
@lynneploetz I've thought about the idea of preferring female cops for sex crimes units. One problem with this idea is that it assumes that the men in sex crimes units are OK with rape and unsympathetic to begin with. I don't think that's true.
I think the attitudes that sex crimes cops have are probably largely learned cynicism. While these articles highlight tragic situations that are presented as victims denied justice, I suspect sex crimes investigators deal with a larger number of situations which for whatever the reason aren't sex crimes and just highlight the human misery of bad social situations and dysfunctional lives.
While female officers may retain some basic identification with the victims, they aren't immune to re-framing their opinion of human nature based on the larger workload they see. Plus its been demonstrated in other areas that women are often worse critics of other women than men are, so in addition to not really being an improvement there's room for it to be worse, too.
A02MIT AUG. 12, 18 9:38 AM
This article highlights why some men continue to rape as there are few consequences I'm still trying to process the comments I've read
JMarvin AUG. 12, 18 9:23 AM
If I were a juror, I wouldn't know either the defendant or the complaining witness from Adam. If the testimony evolved into "he said-she said" the tie goes to the defendant, because the state has the burden of proving - beyond a reasonable doubt - every single element of the criminal charge, including lack of consent. That is sort of a catch-22 because how can anyone practically prove what was in someone else's head in the past? The jury can look to the surrounding facts, but if those are murky and the defendant is testifying "no, absolutely not" that results in plenty of doubt and can be an impossible standard. That is in the legal arena. There is also a practical side. I have taught my granddaughter, since she was small, that there is nothing quite like using common sense in real life situations. You just don't let yourself get so intoxicated that you cannot drive a car, or that you might jump off a 5th story balcony, or fall down in the middle of the freeway, or you lose all sense of judgment about assessing the people around you, especially if you do not know them well. It is not fair, but young women, especially nowdays, seem to have lost a healthy scepticism about strangers and strange situations. Nothing good happens after midnight. Just because he is a "friend of a friend" and shows up at a drinking party, you have no way of knowing whether the stranger you meet may be an ax murderer. Don't separate from your group of friends. Don't let people you don't know very well into your apartment or dorm room. Keep your doors locked at all times, including your car. Look into your back seat before opening your car door. Don't walk alone late at night. Jurors are more likely to disbelieve someone who is so totally lacking in common sense that they expose themselves to dangerous situations and see nothing wrong with it.
Geezer1976 AUG. 12, 18 9:22 AM
How many of these women would want a do over on a DWI?
There are always consequences with decisions you make while impaired.
How many of these cases involved BOTH parties being under the influence. Why not look at both as possibly being the rapist, and not just the one with a penis? Just asking a reasonable question.
A02MIT AUG. 12, 18 11:06 AM
@Geezer1976 I see a lot suggestions on how women can avoid being raped
How about we teach boys and men not to rape and take advantage of people?
aladent AUG. 12, 18 11:12 AM
@A02MIT @Geezer1976 We already do that now.
A02MIT AUG. 12, 18 11:58 AM
@aladent whatever we're doing isn't working, is it? I don't know what the answer is, but you have to go after both the root cause and preventative measures.
aladent AUG. 12, 18 12:31 PM
@A02MIT @aladent I was simply replying to your question. Things and people go wrong no matter what you teach them.
dewarf AUG. 13, 18 9:04 AM
@A02MIT Isn't that what this article is all about? Alcohol consumption and then rape accusations the morning after?
A02MIT AUG. 13, 18 5:51 PM
@dewarf @A02MIT Interesting that you would choose to interpret the point of the article that way
A02MIT AUG. 13, 18 5:59 PM
@dewarf Do you think the women featured in the article gave consent to have sex?
jkbw55 AUG. 12, 18 8:37 AM
What makes me most angry is that these men have all raped before and will again. Some of the monsters have probably convinced themselves it was not rape.
I understand that police time is best used on cases that can be prosecuted. Think of all the time it took to convict Bill Cosby.
sting11 AUG. 12, 18 8:35 AM
The problem with prosecuting any case is credibility. The jury in every case hears this: Crimjig 3.12 "Evaluation of Testimony-Believability of Witnesses"
"You are the sole judges of whether a witness is to be believed and of the weight to be given a witness's testimony. There are no hard and fast rules to guide you in this respect. In determining believability and weight of testimony, you may take into consideration the witness's:
1) Interest or lack of interest in the outcome
2) Relationship to the parties,
3)Ability and opportunity to know, remember, and relate the facts,
5) Age and experience,
6) Frankness and sincerity, or lack thereof,
7) Reasonableness or unreasonableness of their testimony in the light of all the other evidence in the case,
8) Any inpeachment of the witness's testimony,
9) And any other factors that bear on believability and weight.
You should rely in the last analysis upon you own, experience, good judgment, and common sense."
Women should be able to get as drunk as they want and not get raped. Folks should be able to leave their front doors to their homes unlocked and get burglarized. Unfortunately if you leave your front door unlocked you make it really easy to get burglarized when you are gone. By the same token, unfortunately, if a woman gets drunk it makes it really easy for them to get raped. If I were female I would never get drunk in public, especially alone, their are predators among us everywhere and they are not going away. If a woman is drunk and gets raped her credibility is going to be suspect because her "ability to . . . . . . to remember and relate the facts" is suspect. Alcohol affects peoples memory and perception of events. Therefore there credibility at trial is going to be called into question as it should be. Prosecutors and the court system have limited resources. Unfortunatelythe woman who believes she was raped after getting voluntarily intoxicated is going to have a tough time convincing any jury she should be believed. It's a reality. If you are female don't get so drunk in public. It's a dangerous world. Be careful!
lynneploetz AUG. 12, 18 9:56 AM
@sting11 Maybe you should join the sex crimes investigation unit. You have your excess ready made for when you are assigned to a rape case. What if this were your mother or your sister? Would you feel the same?
sting11 AUG. 12, 18 10:54 AM
@lynneploetz @sting11 You missed my point.
dar000 AUG. 12, 18 11:13 AM
@lynneploetz @sting11 You completely missed the point of this thoughtful post. It is not about right or wrong but what the law allows for prosecution.
MCMBurn AUG. 12, 18 11:33 AM
@sting11 Sexual assault a crime and we pay for the police and prosecutors to enforce laws. To make a pre-judgement that the woman is going to be less believable than the assailant and use that as a justification to not investigate or bring charges is a dereliction of duty.
sallygirl AUG. 13, 18 1:27 PM
@sting11 So, in other words women,:
- stay inside as much as possible
-keep your doors locked at all times - maybe best to put bars on your windows and doors
-even if you can't afford it - install a security system
-do not go anywhere by yourself
-do not trust anyone - especially men
- do not use public transportation
-do not use cab services
- always remember how stupid you are so you make sure you consult with a man before taking any action - oops just make sure you can "trust" him
-wear a body camera at all times - literally - you never know when you might be attacked
- never, ever trust your own judgement or feelings because you are female and you know what that means...
I think there is money to be made off of women's stupidity and lack of morality. Yes, someone could invent some really trendy body cameras that you could match with your outfits for an extra flare!
bailaw AUG. 12, 18 8:13 AM
Here is a huge irony: As a criminal court trial lawyer with 34+ years experience on both sides, I found as a prosecutor it was wise to stack the jury with men, and as a defense lawyer, with women.
Male jurors were more protective of female victims of sexual assault, while female jurors were more judgmental of the victims' situations, including alcohol use.
Figure that one out.
jillkzung AUG. 12, 18 9:21 AM
I think it may be because women from what I have observed in my many many many years love to gossip where as men think of these women as their grandmothers, mothers, sisters, Aunties even. They ask themselves this one question, should that person have been drinking? High? Etc... No... But would they want this person to get away with this? No.
sallygirl AUG. 13, 18 5:56 PM
@jillkzung Because women have been taught from birth what being female should look like and just like any kind of oppression the oppressed tend to internalize the oppression they are subjected to and this plays out in different ways. Women are taught from birth that other females are competition - whether it's who is the prettiest to who gets the guy. It is sometimes called horizontal hostility.
gwbuddy AUG. 12, 18 8:08 AM
I'm a man who has a personal policy of NO Alcohol outside of my own home. If only women would follow my example. It might make a difference!
PardonMe AUG. 12, 18 9:12 AM
@gwbuddy One of the women in this story was in her own home.
aladent AUG. 12, 18 11:09 AM
@PardonMe @gwbuddy After being out and getting drunk.
A02MIT AUG. 12, 18 11:59 AM
@aladent @PardonMe @gwbuddyshouldn't we have an expectation of safety in our own homes? what do you think this woman should have done?
gwbuddy AUG. 12, 18 4:54 PM
@A02MIT @aladent @PardonMe @gwbuddy If she was going to be drinking, be absolutely sure that there is NO man around.
Just stick with Soft Drinks: Coke, Pepsi, Dr. Pepper, etc.
A02MIT AUG. 12, 18 7:33 PM
This reminds me of dialogue from a movie
Woman 1 (written as an ultra feminist) – all men are potential rapists
Woman 2 – all men? Even the pope?
Woman 1 – all men
At the time I thought it was ridiculous, but it seems that it’s what many of the men commenting here are advising women to do – have I misinterpreted?
mikelibke AUG. 13, 1812:56 PM
@aladent @PardonMe @gwbuddy And did it responsibly. Aren't we supposed to trust those ride sharing organizations that they hire upstanding people to do the right thing? At least that was the premise for circumventing the registration and licensing requirements.
Bob8080 AUG. 12, 18 8:05 AM
An intoxicated victim of any crime is a challenge for the criminal justice system. Victims may not be able to achieve “justice”, but they should receive support. Or help with their chemical abuse issues.
lynneploetz AUG. 12, 18 9:57 AM
@Bob8080 here we go again Bob. Another penis contributing comment denigrating the victim by insinuating they have a chemical abuse issue. Most rapists are men who have been drinking or using drugs.
mobocracy AUG. 13, 18 7:20 AM
@lynneploetz @Bob8080 Find me a therapist or medical professional who won't categorize binge drinking to unconsciousness as a symptom of substance abuse.
It does not justify being raped, but it does nothing for the argument to diminish abusive alcohol consumption.
mshayek AUG. 12, 18 8:01 AM
Being drugged without your knowledge should be a crime.
Being intoxicated of your own volition, however, is your own choice and your own responsibility. Having your own judgment impaired due to your own actions does indeed make determinations of rape murky. The best solution? Protect yourself in advance by not being inebriated in such situations.
ohhimark AUG. 13, 18 8:58 AM
@mshayek That's kind of how they do it in the middle east. If a woman reports a rape and she had been drinking, she is arrested.
kirby96 AUG. 12, 18 7:59 AM
And with stories like this we finally start to see how the argument will be made that we need to move away from the bedrock of our legal system - the presumption of innocence. But only, of course with today’s bogeyman, SEXUAL ASSAULT. Not for child abuse, or other heinous crimes that are also difficult to prove, ...just for sexual assault.
When a defendant steps into a court room we are supposed to presume that they are innocent. That means that absent compelling evidence, we believe their claim of innocence over the prosecution’s claim of guilt. That’s why alcohol use by victims makes it difficult to prove rape cases. It makes it more difficult to prove ANY crime when the victim is drunk.
When the victim is saying they barely remember what happened and the accused says they remember perfectly clearly it was consensual, or happened differently, or whatever, how can you convict based on that alone? Eureka! You simply write the law in such a way that presumes the guy is guilty BECAUSE the victim was drinking.
Bye bye America, and the due process principles (which progressives used to support) upon which it’s legal system is founded.
MCMBurn AUG. 12, 18 11:40 AM
@kirby96 Actually, if the police were doing their jobs, investigating crimes and reporting results of the investigations, rather than playing judge and jury then maybe the process could move forward for these cases. If we could agree that any one of these cases was handled properly then I would say that the current process was working. Do we need to change the system or the actors who are manipulating it?
cel504 AUG. 12, 18 7:05 AM
Predatory male behavior against women. They seem to take advantage of a situation with no sense of right or wrong. It's wrong!
norunnyeggs AUG. 12, 18 8:18 AM
@cel504 Nothing like convicting someone before they have a day in court. Women sometimes lie. Just a fact.
A02MIT AUG. 12, 18 11:03 AM
@norunnyeggs Around 60% of rapes are never reported
Of those reported:
22-27% are sent for prosecuition
8-15% have charges filed
5-9% are convicted
It's difficult to prosecute and prove an actual rape, how many convictions for a known, lying accuser?
The truth is that more women are dragged through the mud when they report rape than innocent accused men are. and if they are, they end up exonerated.
MCMBurn AUG. 13, 18 11:46 AM
@norunnyeggs @cel504 Anyone can lie about anything. Does that fact preclude the process of enforcing any laws?
Spike1 AUG. 12, 18 8:41 AM
@cel504 Don't put yourself in that situation. Everyone thinks that no one will do that to them. Quit being naïve.
lynneploetz AUG. 12, 18 9:59 AM
@Spike1 @cel504 blame the victim again,
aladent AUG. 12, 18 1:19 PM
@lynneploetz @Spike1 @cel504 It's not blaming the victim. It's not putting yourself in what may be a defenseless position. It's wise and prudent advice. How is that blaming the victim?
mikelibke AUG. 13, 18 1:00 PM
@aladent @lynneploetz @Spike1 @cel504 Because in the stories that were featured it's not reasonable to interpret that they were putting themselves in a defenseless position. Oftentimes these people are engaging in normal social functions and/or activities of daily living but things went bad.
ohhimark AUG. 13, 18 8:52 AM
@Spike1 @cel504 How about we teach our boys and men not to rape?
muckandgrind AUG. 13, 18 9:58 AM
@ohhimark @Spike1 @cel504 Good idea. I'm on board 100% and I've raised my boys to respect women and be careful when it comes to consent. But there still needs to be the presumption of innocence for the accused. We all know that there are many cases where men are unjustly accused of rape. That's what makes this so difficult.
athe0007 AUG. 13, 18 10:21 AM
@ohhimark, How do we teach our girls not to put themselves in which they can't give consent?
mikelibke AUG. 13, 18 12:57 PM
@athe0007 @ohhimark When it happens without their knowledge I don't think that's a fair way to approach a solution.
norunnyeggs AUG. 12, 18 6:54 AM
If both parties are intoxicated how is it that one person can claim they were too intoxicated to consent but the other is suppose to be able to determine whether they consented or not? How many times does a person wake up and feel regret for what they did and decide to claim it was done without consent or against their will? Too many men are in prison or have had their lives ruined because someone regretted what they did after a night of drinking.
joeyc87 AUG. 12, 18 7:22 AM
@norunnyeggs I shouldn't be held accountable for choices I make.
lynneploetz AUG. 12, 18 10:00 AM
@norunnyeggs Keep your penis in your pocket and use it only when you are sober. Then you will not end up in prison with your life ruined because you won't end up raping a woman.
It-12345 AUG. 12, 18 11:42 AM
@lynneploetz @norunnyeggs So woman are allowed to have sex when they're intoxicated but men aren't?
I know people who went to prison because they were falsely accused of rape. The girl simply regretted her actions but it was fully consensual. It was her friend that pushed her to pursue rape charges against the guy because she didn't like him.
A02MIT AUG. 12, 18 12:13 PM
@It-12345 and they were able to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt evidently - isn't that how the system works?
Are you sure your friend was innocent?
dar000 AUG. 12, 18 11:17 AM
@norunnyeggs This is a true chicken or egg situation. The only way around it is that perhaps no one should be allowed to have sex after alcohol or drug consumption.
It-12345 AUG. 12, 18 12:13 PM
@dar000 @norunnyeggs How many hours would have to pass by before sex is legal? What if a guy meets a girl and they end up having sex -- only for the girl to be drinking earlier and the guy didn't know she was previously drinking? It would only muddy the water worse than already.
mikelibke AUG. 13, 18 9:30 AM
@norumnyeggs: I hear what you're saying about wrongful convictions and even public knowledge about an allegation but the stats presented in these articles point otherwise. How can we hold false accusers and rapists accountable when regret is part of the issue?
ralph6767 AUG. 12, 18 6:29 AM
Let me start off by stating unequivocally that rape is a terrible crime nobody deserves, but the whole issue of determining intoxication presents a real Catch-22 for prosecutors and the accused.
Alcohol changes a person's behavior in many ways, ranging from slightly reducing one's inhibitions to losing consciousness. One end of the spectrum is obvious, but the big challenge is most fall in between.
If we consider DUI, there's a slew of laws and procedures that need to be followed to determine intoxication. And it's more than just the .10 rule, since drivers may be charged with DUI at lower levels if they're still intoxicated. Even though police officers have to undergo significant training to determine whether a driver is intoxicated, there's still a lot of gray area, as evidenced by the varying court cases. So even with all the standards and precedent for DUI, it's tough to determine intoxication.
Now imagine someone in a social setting being required to determine intoxication and its impact on consent. All the factors inherent in determining intoxication for motorists exist, but with parties who have no idea how to determine intoxication (beyond the obvious stumbling, about-to-pass-out cases, already covered in the rape statutes).
People who respond with "any alcohol, no sex", are not being realistic, given most people who have a glass of wine can function perfectly normal.
So, while expanding the limits within the statutes is a good idea, I don't see how they can actually be implemented.
courtboy AUG. 11, 18 9:30 PM
Hard to believe the piece suggests alcohol involvement leads to problems w rape cases. Hope they didn’t spend much time figuring that out.
TheDarkOne AUG. 11, 18 11:09 PM
Not only that but if one can't recollect exactly what happened, one doesn't make a very credible witness. Pretty hard for a prosecutor to get a conviction under those circumstances.
lynneploetz AUG. 12, 18 10:03 AM
@TheDarkOne The very fact they women can't remember is evidence that they were either self-induced intoxicated, helped in getting drunk by a predator or drugged by a predator. In any case of incapacity, it is impossible to give consent and every man reading this knows that. Again, what if this were your mother, your sister, your girlfriend even?
dar000 AUG. 12, 18 11:19 AM
@lynneploetz @TheDarkOne I agree. But what if it were you son being prosecuted for what he thought was consensual sex? It goes both ways. I have both a teen-age son and a teen-age daughter, and I want to protect them both.
It-12345 AUG. 12, 18 11:45 AM
@lynneploetz @TheDarkOne And a woman needs to hold herself accountable for self-induced intoxication instead of blaming everyone else for her actions.
aodabuse AUG. 12, 18 1:57 PM
@It-12345 Or maybe the police could actually attempt to interview the suspect, witnesses, not allow a suspect to determine whether or not he provides DNA.....this also goes both ways.
A02MIT AUG. 12, 18 7:35 PM
@It-12345 getting drunk isn't punishable by rape last I checked
TheDarkOne AUG. 13, 18 11:14 AM
@Lynne you arrive at several conclusions that cannot be tested after the fact. It may be evidence, I suppose but it may not be very credible evidence. Certainly not conclusive evidence.
elsex001 AUG. 13, 18 11:15 AM
@lynneploetz @TheDarkOne No. It is not impossible to give consent. She may have said yes and just not remembered it. You are then putting it on the man to determine level of intoxication and cognition. There are plenty of drunk women who do consent, just like there are plenty of drunk guys who consent. I think taking advantage of a drunk person is abhorrent, but very hard to prove it happened.