Transcript of Ritchie interview

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           5                     MARK RITCHIE INTERVIEW
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           8                        DECEMBER 12, 2007
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           1                   MR. NOBLES:  This recording is being made
           2        in the Office of the Legislative Auditor in
           3        St. Paul, Minnesota.
           4                   Today's date is December the 12th, 2007,
           5        the time is approximately four minutes to 2:00 p.m.
           6        There's never a consistent time here on the clock,
           7        but we'll call it that.
           8                   My name is James Nobles, I'm the
           9        Legislative Auditor for the State of Minnesota.
          10                   Does anyone in the room have any
          11        objection to having your voice recorded?
          12                   Hearing no objection, then I'd like to
          13        ask each person in the room to identify him or
          14        herself and also give your employment position
          15        relevant to this interview.  So --
          16                   MR. RITCHIE:  Mark Ritchie, Secretary of
          17        State.
          18                   MR. ROTHMAN:  Mike Rothman, I am an
          19        attorney representing the Ritchie campaign.
          20                   MS. WATTERUD:  Shelly Watterud,
          21        Confidential Secretary.
          22                   MS. FERKUL:  Cecile Ferkul, Deputy
          23        Legislative Auditor.
          24                   MR. NOBLES:  Thank you.
          25                   The purpose of this interview is to ask
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           1        Mr. Mark Ritchie questions about allegations that
           2        we've received concerning alleged misconduct in the
           3        Secretary of State's office.
           4                   This interview is part of an
           5        investigation being conducted by the Legislative
           6        Auditor under the authority stated in Minnesota
           7        Statutes 3.971, subdivision 6, which authorizes the
           8        Legislative Auditor to investigate allegations
           9        involving the possible misuse of public funds and
          10        other matters.
          11                   I also want to state for the record that
          12        Minnesota Statutes 3.978, subdivision 2, provides as
          13        follows:  "All public officials and their deputies
          14        and employees and all corporations, firms and
          15        individuals having business involving the receipt
          16        and disbursement or custody of public funds shall at
          17        all times afford reasonable facilities for
          18        examination by the Legislative Auditor, make returns
          19        and reports required by the Legislative Auditor,
          20        attend and answer under oath the Legislative
          21        Auditor's lawful inquiries, produce and exhibit all
          22        books, accounts, documents, data of any
          23        classification and property that the Legislative
          24        Auditor may need to inspect, and in all things aid
          25        the Legislative Auditor in the performance of the
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           1        Legislative Auditor's duties."
           2                   Mr. Ritchie, we believe this law requires
           3        you to cooperate with our investigation.  But you
           4        have come here voluntarily, you were not compelled
           5        by subpoena.  And you are free to answer or not
           6        answer any question that we ask.  You are also free
           7        to leave at any time.
           8                   We have asked you to attend this
           9        interview and answer our questions because we think
          10        you have information relevant to our investigation
          11        and we want to benefit from that information.
          12                   Because we are requesting that you answer
          13        questions and make statements to us under oath, I
          14        want you to know that Minnesota Statutes 3.978,
          15        subdivision 3, states, "A person who swears falsely
          16        concerning any matters stated under oath is guilty
          17        of a gross misdemeanor."
          18                   In addition, I want you to know that the
          19        answers and statements you make to us today will
          20        become part of an official record of this
          21        investigation and we will use that information to
          22        help us develop a report on the allegations that we
          23        are investigating.
          24                   Until we publicly release our report, all
          25        of the statements that you make to us and all of the
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           1        documents that you provide to us will be classified
           2        by us as not public.  However, when the report
           3        concerning the allegations that we're investigating
           4        is released, the recording that is being made and a
           5        transcript of that recording concerning this
           6        interview will become public as a part of our
           7        workpapers.
           8                   For any part of your statements to us to
           9        be maintained as not public, you must request and we
          10        must grant a not public classification.
          11                   Do you at this time request that any of
          12        your statements to us be classified as not public?
          13        You can reserve that to later.
          14                   MR. RITCHIE:  Yeah.  I've never
          15        considered the question.
          16                   MR. NOBLES:  I just wanted you to know
          17        that under our law it is a possibility.
          18                   MR. RITCHIE:  I appreciate getting the
          19        information.  It was all new information to me, so
          20        thank you.
          21                   MR. NOBLES:  Are you now prepared to take
          22        an oath to answer our questions truthfully?
          23                   MR. RITCHIE:  Absolutely.
          24                   MR. NOBLES:  Would you please raise your
          25        right hand?
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           1                   Donald Mark Ritchie, do you swear that
           2        the answers you give and the statements you make to
           3        us relative to the matters under consideration in
           4        this interview will be the truth, the whole truth,
           5        and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
           6                   MR. RITCHIE:  Yes.
           7                   MR. NOBLES:  Thank you.
           8   BY MR. NOBLES:
           9   Q    And again, for the record, would you state your name
          10        and your position?
          11   A    Mark Ritchie, Secretary of State.
          12   Q    Thank you.
          13                   I'd like to start by getting to the issue
          14        that sort of brought us to this point of having
          15        these interviews under oath.
          16                   On November the 20th, 2007, an article
          17        appeared in the Star Tribune, first on their website
          18        and then subsequently in a newspaper article,
          19        written by Mark Brunswick.
          20                   According to the article you told
          21        Mr. Brunswick that you provided campaign -- your
          22        campaign with contact information obtained through
          23        the Secretary of State's civic education program.
          24        The article also reported that you told
          25        Mr. Brunswick that it was a mistake for your
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           1        campaign to use the contact information.
           2                   He also quotes you as saying, quote, the
           3        campaign should have checked with groups and
           4        individuals who listed themselves in this public
           5        directory to make sure they wanted to receive my
           6        civic engagement newsletter, close quote.
           7                   First question.  Does Mr. Brunswick's
           8        November the 20th article accurately reflect what
           9        you told him?
          10   A    I don't recall the conversation and I would need to
          11        hear his tape to be able to answer that.  But I know
          12        that in my correspondence with him I have stated
          13        that in the future we will always ask people if they
          14        would like to receive our civic engagement
          15        newsletter, and I can go back and review that
          16        correspondence easily.
          17   Q    So, just to be clear, you communicated this
          18        information to him how?  In a telephone
          19        conversation, a face-to-face meeting or --
          20   A    Never in a face-to-face meeting, in e-mail
          21        communication, and then we have exchanged voicemail.
          22                   MR. NOBLES:  Mr. Rothman.
          23                   MR. ROTHMAN:  Just to clarify the
          24        question, you're referring to the November 20th?
          25                   MR. NOBLES:  That's correct.
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           1                   MR. ROTHMAN:  Or -- okay.  Not the
           2        original --
           3                   MR. NOBLES:  That's correct.  It appeared
           4        on the Star Tribune website the evening of November
           5        the 20th, and then the following day --
           6                   MR. RITCHIE:  The 21st.
           7                   MR. NOBLES:  -- it was printed in the
           8        newspaper.
           9                   MR. ROTHMAN:  So your question pertains
          10        to how was that --
          11                   MR. NOBLES:  Was that an accurate
          12        reflection of what Mr. Ritchie told him and how it
          13        was communicated.  So the latter question was how
          14        was it communicated.
          15                   MR. ROTHMAN:  I just wanted to clarify
          16        that we're talking about the 20th.
          17                   MR. NOBLES:  Okay.
          18   BY MR. NOBLES:
          19   Q    Well, you have no dispute as to your having said
          20        those things?
          21   A    Oh, I would need to review the correspondence and
          22        perhaps the voicemails.  I was having a colonoscopy
          23        during this time and so I was out for two days, the
          24        18th and 19th, and recovering on the 20th, so it
          25        would be good for me to look at the correspondence
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           1        and to review the voicemails.
           2   Q    Would you have that available?
           3   A    I just assume that I would.  I would have to look.
           4   Q    If you communicated that to Mr. Brunswick by an
           5        e-mail, could you provide us --
           6   A    Absolutely.
           7   Q    -- a copy of that?
           8                   Assuming this is a correct reflection of
           9        what you said, there is a reference in here to the
          10        campaign.
          11   A    Um-hum.
          12   Q    Could you clarify as to what that reference means?
          13        Campaigns are not inanimate objects, they're usually
          14        individuals.
          15   A    Right.  And in Minnesota law, campaign finance law,
          16        in nonelection years it's essentially impossible to
          17        actually have a campaign, a staffed campaign.  And
          18        so it exists as bookkeeping to file the reports
          19        necessary with campaign finance, and a large group
          20        of volunteers who turn out for events, you know,
          21        provide, you know, graphic design, all the different
          22        things that would be useful in the course of a year
          23        for things that are absolutely outside of the bounds
          24        of the office of Secretary of State.
          25   Q    Would you consider yourself to be a part of the
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           1        campaign?
           2   A    Most of my working hours I am part of and I am the
           3        Secretary of State, and there are parts of my hours
           4        when I'm taking some action that's absolutely not
           5        part of the office of Secretary of State, and in
           6        some cases they would be campaign activities.  For
           7        example, signing all of the -- the PCR forms, the
           8        refund forms is required of the candidate who has
           9        the campaign that is receiving the contribution.
          10                   So there are part of my daily or weekly,
          11        really, or monthly activities that are campaign
          12        related and they're stipulated largely by the
          13        campaign finance laws in Minnesota.
          14   Q    One of the reasons I ask is because in some of our
          15        interviews with your staff, and we'll get to this
          16        point later, but I just want you to know it for
          17        reference now, that they have frequently made a
          18        distinction between the office of the Secretary of
          19        State and, again, what they refer to as the
          20        campaign.  And so I think at some point here we need
          21        to be clear as to who is being referred to
          22        specifically.
          23                   And so I would come to that question,
          24        actually, at this point, but possibly later as well.
          25        Again, assuming that this statement here is close to
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           1        accurate in what you said, and made a reference to
           2        the campaign having made a mistake, specifically who
           3        is it that you were referring to that made a
           4        mistake?
           5   A    I don't know what mistake is being referred to, but
           6        I have said that the campaign's requesting people's
           7        positive information that they are interested in
           8        civic engagement needs to happen going forward.
           9   Q    Okay.  If it was a mistake for the campaign to use
          10        the information to send out a newsletter from the
          11        campaign --
          12   A    I'm not aware that somebody has made that statement.
          13   Q    Okay.
          14   A    Is that your -- I need to understand your question.
          15        Because I don't believe anyone -- this was a public
          16        directory and it was sent to people interested in
          17        civic engagement.
          18   Q    My only reference is, again, I go back to the
          19        article that reports that you said to Mr. Brunswick
          20        that -- that it was a mistake for the campaign to
          21        use the contact information, quote, the campaign
          22        should have checked with the groups and the
          23        individuals who listed themselves in this public
          24        directory to make sure they wanted to receive my
          25        civic engagement newsletter.
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           1   A    Yes, if that's in quotes it's likely that that's
           2        what I said.  I don't believe that is a question of
           3        a mistake, it's a question of courtesy.
           4   Q    Okay.  So --
           5   A    This was a public directory --
           6   Q    Right.
           7   A    -- and so it should be treated with courtesy.
           8   Q    And we'll get to some questions about, you know, how
           9        that information should have been, can be used.
          10                   But let me ask you, why were people who
          11        participated in the civic education events that your
          12        office sponsored, why were they asked to provide
          13        personal contact information?
          14   A    I believe all of the requests put to individuals who
          15        participated were about their organizations and
          16        asking for 50 word summaries.  I do not believe that
          17        constitutes personal information, it's
          18        organizational descriptions.  And the directory
          19        includes those 50 word summaries of organizational
          20        descriptions.
          21   Q    And did it also include e-mail information?
          22   A    Address, phone, everything that those organizations
          23        provided was included.  No organizations were ever
          24        excluded, except upon request, and 52 times they
          25        were asked if they wanted to be excluded, and if any
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           1        of the information was incorrect.
           2   Q    You reference the fact that the directory is a
           3        directory of organizations.  Is it not true that
           4        some of the people -- some individuals are listed?
           5   A    Yes, some individuals wrote 50 word descriptions of
           6        their activities and provided them.
           7   Q    And they were not representing themselves as
           8        organizations, they were representing themselves as
           9        individuals?
          10   A    I do not know how they were representing themselves.
          11        Some, you know, maybe professors who worked for
          12        universities represented themselves, but they
          13        possibly represented their university.  But no one
          14        was asked to distinguish one way or the other, they
          15        were asked only if they wanted to provide 50 word
          16        descriptions, and no one was ever excluded from that
          17        process.
          18   Q    Do you recall what disclosures were made either in
          19        writing or orally to those people as to how that
          20        contact information would or would not be used?
          21   A    It is stated in each of the e-mails, and we could
          22        look at those e-mails and read what was stated to
          23        people.
          24   Q    Okay.  Do you think that -- do you want to do that,
          25        to submit that for the record?  We have that
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           1        information.
           2   A    Well, if it's an important question, then it's
           3        probably good to read it.
           4   Q    These are some of the e-mails, and I'll let you
           5        select --
           6   A    Okay.  Well, just --
           7                   Please take a moment to double-check your
           8        directory listing.  Send us any corrections and
           9        additions you would like to make.  If you notice
          10        that a key group or individual is missing, let us
          11        know.  We must be as diverse as possible, including
          12        all points of view and perspectives.  If you do not
          13        want to be included in any future communications
          14        about civic education, please let us know and we
          15        will take you off this list before it's finalized.
          16        If you'd like to send a 50 word or fewer description
          17        of your work we can begin to build an annotated
          18        contact.
          19                   And I think on the cover of the directory
          20        it says, if your organization is not in this
          21        directory and you would like to be included in the
          22        next edition, please contact the office.  If you
          23        wish to change your listing, please -- please submit
          24        by e-mail to secretary.state@state.mn.us.  If you're
          25        no longer active in civic issues or do not want to
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           1        be listed in the next edition of this directory,
           2        please let us know by January 1, 2008.
           3                   So I think that was -- that would be a
           4        good summary of what was normally said.
           5   Q    And I assume that you had some role in writing that
           6        statement?
           7   A    I assume the same.
           8   Q    Okay.  And when you made that statement to people,
           9        was it your intention that the contact information
          10        that they provided you would be used to create a
          11        network and communicate with the people who gave
          12        that contact information about the activities of the
          13        Secretary of State's civic education and engagement
          14        program?
          15   A    No, it was stated that that was a direct referral,
          16        all of the organizations, about 300, for them to
          17        create a network of their organizations as a private
          18        network and association.  And, in fact, it has
          19        evolved towards the creation of that private
          20        network.
          21                   It was never intended to be the office of
          22        Secretary -- Secretary of State's network, it was
          23        stated in the beginning, and I believe it's probably
          24        in the minutes, that the goal was to convene people
          25        and then have an independent Minnesota council on
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           1        civic education and engagement.  And I believe we
           2        are, you know, headed in that direction.
           3   Q    But it is true, is it not, that the office of the
           4        Secretary of State was the official host of the
           5        initial meeting and was the vehicle for compiling
           6        that data, and you were, in fact, as Secretary of
           7        State, custodian of that contact information --
           8   A    Absolutely.
           9   Q    So what expectation do you think, out of what you
          10        said to people who provided this information was
          11        created, what expectation was created among those
          12        people as to how that information was going to be
          13        used?
          14   A    That it would be a public directory available free
          15        of charge to all individuals and organizations who
          16        expressed interest in civic education and civic
          17        engagement.
          18   Q    Okay.  If, again, the office of the Secretary of
          19        State was the host, the organizer of these events,
          20        the custodian of the data, if you, yourself, as
          21        Secretary of State, were the driving force behind at
          22        least the initial creation of these events, why was
          23        then your campaign organization the vehicle through
          24        which you were going to communicate with these
          25        people via a newsletter, and not a newsletter from
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           1        the Secretary of State's office?
           2   A    It has been suggested that our office should create
           3        a newsletter on civic engagement and civic
           4        education.  It's not currently in the budget, and we
           5        will be requesting funding for that excellent idea
           6        next year.
           7   Q    Let me just explore with you your -- your
           8        understanding and your expectations, both as a
           9        constitutional officer and as a citizen, about your
          10        sense of the boundaries of how data should be used
          11        that is, again, obtained by a government office.
          12                   If Governor Pawlenty's office, and I'm
          13        sure they do, received a lot of e-mails from
          14        citizens about concerns or compliments about the
          15        activities of state government, do you think it
          16        would be proper for Governor Pawlenty's campaign
          17        organization to obtain copies of those public
          18        documents and use them for a political purpose?
          19   A    This is something I would never do and has never
          20        happened, we have very strict boundaries in our
          21        office.  But I don't have any ability to comment on
          22        the Governor's behavior or activities, it would be
          23        speculation on my part.
          24   Q    Okay.  We're going to come back in a minute to kind
          25        of some more general questions about what creates
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           1        that boundary --
           2   A    Um-hum.
           3   Q    -- between official and political.  Because I think
           4        that is very central to what we're investigating,
           5        and it has many aspects, and so I will want to come
           6        back to it.
           7                   But I want to just pursue a few more
           8        questions about the civic education and engagement
           9        program.
          10   A    Um-hum.
          11   Q    What was your goal in creating this program?
          12   A    Well, in the official state website, one of the
          13        second most important official duty of the office of
          14        Secretary of State is the promotion of civic
          15        participation, citizen participation, so it's
          16        obviously a very high responsibility.
          17                   But equally important to me was that in
          18        my first week in office, a number of the larger
          19        civic engagement and civic education groups came to
          20        my office and said what are you going to do to help
          21        advance civic education and civic education, part of
          22        your job duties in Minnesota, and they suggested to
          23        convene a round table to find out what people are
          24        interested in doing.
          25                   And I hosted the first round table in
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           1        April, and other organizations then have picked up
           2        and developed it in subcategories.  But the goal was
           3        to encourage the groups here to create what has been
           4        successful, according to the groups, in other
           5        states, a Minnesota council that has its own
           6        organizational structure to promote civic engagement
           7        and civic education in Minnesota.
           8   Q    Can you cite any specific legal authority in statute
           9        that gives the Secretary of State's office the
          10        authority to use public resources for civic
          11        education and engagement?
          12   A    I'm not an expert in the law, so I would need to go
          13        back and look at that activity.  But the Department
          14        of Finance says this is my second highest priority,
          15        and I assume they have made that statement based on
          16        their understanding and prior reading of the
          17        statute.
          18   Q    In developing this civic education and engagement
          19        program, did you target any particular groups for
          20        participation?
          21   A    We were extremely broad and inviting groups that
          22        have all forms of perspective, and we encouraged
          23        every group to invite many others that they believed
          24        cared about civic education and civic engagement.
          25                   And I think from the existence of the
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           1        directory, you can see a very wide range of
           2        political perspectives, of geographic perspectives,
           3        of physical ability and disability opportunities,
           4        it's a very, very diverse community in Minnesota,
           5        and they were all invited and included.
           6   Q    Sir, at any time in the development of the civic
           7        education program, did anyone indicate to you that
           8        the program would help or disadvantage one political
           9        party over another?
          10   A    No.
          11   Q    What measures did you take to ensure that the
          12        program was not skewed to advantage one political
          13        party over another?
          14   A    Every communication spoke to the need for diversity
          15        of all kinds, every meeting was absolutely open to
          16        the public and everyone was invited.  Every person
          17        who ever communicated their interest was included
          18        and communicated with on an equal basis.  And, of
          19        course, it's my personal desire and my personal
          20        communications that this is not just to be
          21        bipartisan, which is how some people define
          22        nonpartisan, but to be truly nonpartisan in the
          23        sense that most Minnesotans are not affiliated with
          24        any political party, most individuals engaged in
          25        civic education and civic engagement are truly there
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           1        to promote the democracy.  And that was the
           2        approach, we took in all activities related to the
           3        civic engagement and civic education -- educational
           4        program.
           5   Q    In the letter that I received, and we'll get to more
           6        specifics about the letter, but I made a request in
           7        November, November the 2nd, I received a response on
           8        November the 9th from your office signed by Bert
           9        Black.
          10                   And in that, and I can find that document
          11        if you need to see it for reference, but in that
          12        document Mr. Black makes reference to the fact that
          13        in your March 20 e-mail you said that you wanted to
          14        develop a civic education and engagement movement
          15        and you compared it to the environmental movement.
          16                   Could you elaborate on what you mean by a
          17        movement?
          18                   MR. ROTHMAN:  Do you want to see the
          19        letter?
          20   A    No, I know that is an incorrect reading.  It said
          21        environmental education movement, and so I want to
          22        correct the record, because that was a mistake.
          23   Q    You're correct.
          24   A    Thank you.
          25   Q    It does say --
00022
           1   A    In the State of Minnesota, environmental education
           2        is a very successful component of our public
           3        education, and we also have very successful
           4        community education, that's another model we refer
           5        to.  But in other states they actually have civic
           6        education and engagement councils, more or less like
           7        our environmental education council.  And so those
           8        are models of civic organizations coming together to
           9        promote civic participation in the government that I
          10        think are worthy of looking at in Minnesota.
          11   Q    So I appreciate your drawing that distinction, and
          12        you are correct that your reference was to an
          13        environmental education movement.  You do see a
          14        distinction, then, between the environmental
          15        movement and the environmental education movement?
          16   A    Of course.  The environmental education component of
          17        the Minnesota public school system is an element of
          18        the State Department of Education, it's a very
          19        longstanding institution.  The state funds
          20        environmental education centers around the state,
          21        it's part of the requirement in the school for
          22        statutory accomplishment of school systems.  It's a
          23        very institutional part of the state government.
          24                   I can imagine that some people might try
          25        to smear or in somehow besmirch the reputation of
00023
           1        environmental educators or at the Minnesota
           2        Department of Education's environmental education
           3        staff, but I'm very clear about the distinction, and
           4        I want to be very clear on the record, environmental
           5        education is a very important part of Minnesota's
           6        public education and all school systems, and it's a
           7        very, very successful part of our educational
           8        program in Minnesota.
           9   Q    Thank you.
          10                   MR. NOBLES:  I'm going to have a few more
          11        questions, but I want to pause for a moment and see
          12        if Cecile has questions in this area.  I've got a
          13        few more.  But were there any things that I've
          14        covered so far that you want to follow up on?
          15   BY MS. FERKUL:
          16   Q    I, you know, one of the things that we have
          17        mentioned, and will have some further questions
          18        about, and we asked you here today as Secretary of
          19        State, and I'm just curious about having a lawyer
          20        representing the campaign, why -- I mean, it
          21        seems -- and you talked about how in your office
          22        it's a very clear line between official duties and
          23        campaign duties, and we asked you here in your
          24        official capacity.  So now I'm confused again why we
          25        have a lawyer representing the campaign here?
00024
           1   A    One of the questions that were asked are questions
           2        that are really not known in the official office of
           3        the Secretary of State, some of them are simply
           4        matters that have to do with the campaign.  And so
           5        Mr. Rothman has been my campaign attorney for a
           6        little over two years, two-and-a-half years,
           7        something like that, and is a very important part of
           8        what is considered the structure of the campaign in
           9        a year that's not an election year.
          10                   But, quite frankly, trying to understand
          11        the nature of the questions requires having to think
          12        very broadly, and I did not know that you had
          13        invited me only in reference to the office of
          14        Secretary of State, and as I looked at the questions
          15        it appeared to be much broader than that.  So
          16        perhaps I was mistaken.
          17   BY MR. NOBLES:
          18   Q    Well, let me follow up, because actually I had a few
          19        questions about that.  You know, I do think our
          20        questions are broad and they do get into issues of
          21        politics to some degree.  Because, again, I think
          22        we're being asked to define where is the line that
          23        divides use of resources that are provided by the
          24        public --
          25   A    Um-hum.
00025
           1   Q    -- within an office that is held by someone who is a
           2        political figure.  So, in fact, I would ask you this
           3        question.
           4   A    Um-hum.
           5   Q    You were elected in November 2006 and were sworn
           6        into office as Minnesota Secretary of State on
           7        January the 2nd, 2007; correct?
           8   A    Um-hum.
           9   Q    You attained the office of Secretary of State
          10        through a process of political party endorsement and
          11        a partisan election; correct?
          12   A    Um-hum.  Um-hum.
          13   Q    Therefore, you are holding a political office in the
          14        State of Minnesota; correct?
          15   A    A constitutional office is the description of my
          16        office.  I would not myself call it a political
          17        office, it's a constitutional office.
          18   Q    So what influence do you as a partisan political
          19        figure bring to bear on the office you attained
          20        through a political partisan process?
          21   A    Gee, well, the office is a functioning agency of the
          22        government, we provide business services to everyone
          23        on a completely total access basis.  We provide
          24        information to people without discrimination.  And
          25        we provide services to all citizens and to all
00026
           1        eligible Minnesotans and others on an absolutely
           2        nondiscriminatory basis.
           3   Q    What is the rationale, then, for requiring you or
           4        others to attain this office through a political --
           5        partisan political process?
           6   A    The Minnesota constitution.
           7   Q    So it is your philosophy, as now the office holder
           8        of this office, that you got there through a
           9        political process, but that you are now supposed to
          10        totally and completely set politics aside?
          11   A    I got there through the vote of Minnesota citizens
          12        in two elections.  First in a primary that's an open
          13        primary, it's not a partisan primary in that
          14        respect, it's open.  And in a general election.
          15                   But your comment that I bring to the
          16        office the philosophy of nonpartisanship, I want to
          17        underline with a very bright marker, it's not just a
          18        policy of bipartisanship, it's a policy of
          19        nonpartisanship, and that's been demonstrated
          20        throughout the entire ten months of my office so
          21        far.
          22                   I gather the heads of all the political
          23        parties for equal access and equal discussion, and
          24        I'm very cognizant that most Minnesotans are not
          25        affiliated with any political party.  Most
00027
           1        businesses that use our services are, of course, not
           2        affiliated with any political party.  And almost all
           3        of our activities are in the broader context
           4        available to all people who either are citizens or
           5        residents of our state, or in some cases, businesses
           6        and others from other states or other countries if
           7        it's appropriate for the service we're providing.
           8   Q    And I do just reference for your benefit the fact
           9        that I did look at your website related to your
          10        campaign and I do have your statement on
          11        bipartisanship, so I do know that you made
          12        statements about your philosophies to the functions
          13        of the Secretary of State's office.
          14                   But I'm curious, though, as to your
          15        opinion on whether your philosophy about the
          16        Secretary of State's office applies to all
          17        constitutional offices, including the Governor's
          18        office, do you distinguish it in any way, or the
          19        Lieutenant Governor's office, as being the same in
          20        terms of the requirement of setting partisanship
          21        aside?
          22   A    I can only speak for myself.  This is a personal
          23        philosophy that's been expressed through my entire
          24        life, I've never been engaged in electoral politics
          25        before, never active in a political party, so I
00028
           1        can't really speak for governors or others who've
           2        spent their lives active in political parties.
           3   Q    Thank you.
           4                   Beyond a philosophical point of view, are
           5        you aware of any legal restrictions, specifically in
           6        Minnesota Statutes, that would restrict staff or you
           7        personally from using office time, equipment, or any
           8        other resources of the Secretary of State's office
           9        for political activity?
          10   A    I don't know the statute, but of course the Code of
          11        Ethics for the Executive Branch, but I'm assuming
          12        it's a statute of some kind, that would be at least
          13        one.
          14   Q    In referencing the code, which is 43A.38, Code of
          15        Ethics for the Executive Branch, by implication I
          16        think you're saying, but I'd like you to say it
          17        explicitly, that it does apply to all staff in the
          18        office of the Secretary of State?
          19   A    I'm not a lawyer or a legal scholar, but we say
          20        publicly inside of our office it does apply.  I
          21        can't speak for the statute, I can just speak for
          22        what we say in our office.  That these are our
          23        expectations of the ethical performance of all
          24        staff.  Perhaps you could inform me if it's also
          25        statutorily applied, but I can tell you that's how
00029
           1        we say it.
           2   Q    And how do you communicate that to your staff?
           3   A    Well, everyone who is hired goes through an
           4        orientation.  And they not only see those documents,
           5        but all of the policies around information
           6        technology and phones and all the policies that
           7        apply to the legal and proper and efficient use of
           8        state resources, of public resources, and of
           9        behavior.
          10   Q    Do you believe that it applies to you personally as
          11        Secretary of State?
          12   A    Absolutely.
          13   Q    Are you aware of any staff in the Secretary of
          14        State's office using time, equipment or any other
          15        resources of the office to engage in political
          16        activities?
          17   A    None.
          18   Q    I'm going to turn to some other questions, so
          19        again --
          20                   MS. FERKUL:  Yeah, I'd like to follow up
          21        on that.
          22                   MR. NOBLES:  Sure.
          23                   MS. FERKUL:  Thanks.
          24   BY MS. FERKUL:
          25   Q    You mentioned that as you solicited information from
00030
           1        people that attended the meetings, you told them
           2        they could provide their 50 word comment, their
           3        contact information, and that you notified them that
           4        they could be taken off the list if they no longer
           5        wanted to receive information about future civic
           6        communications.
           7   A    Um-hum.
           8   Q    Was there any thought that the list would be used in
           9        any other way?  Was there any -- and I guess where
          10        I'm going with that is that these -- the people that
          11        received information through the campaign, that they
          12        believed came from this list, felt that that was
          13        inappropriate.  And that they may not have
          14        anticipated that the list might be used in any other
          15        way than for the purpose that the information was
          16        originally gathered, which was to get future
          17        information about civic education, so the idea that
          18        they could be excluded, why would they have thought
          19        that they would want to be excluded?
          20   A    The information was gathered to create a public
          21        directory.  So I don't believe that anyone would
          22        have an idea other than what would be a public
          23        directory.
          24   Q    Um-hum.  Okay.  Also, I believe you said that, and
          25        maybe I'm connecting a few things incorrectly here.
00031
           1        The civic newsletter that was sent out through the
           2        campaign, did you say that that was sent out through
           3        the campaign because you don't have funding for that
           4        in the Secretary of State?
           5   A    No, the question that was asked to me, and I don't
           6        want to put words in your mouth so I'm going to
           7        paraphrase the question, was why doesn't my office
           8        produce a civic engagement newsletter, this has been
           9        suggested, it's an excellent suggestion, and we will
          10        request funding for it, but it's very inappropriate
          11        to, you know, allocate resources that are not in the
          12        budget and so we have to secure the resources before
          13        we can do that.  It's a great idea.
          14   Q    The first letter that was sent out through the
          15        campaign was not intended to be a civic education
          16        newsletter?
          17   A    It has only been information about civic engagement
          18        and civic education --
          19   Q    Those are different things?
          20   A    Yes, they are related.  Civic education generally
          21        refers to K through 12 education about the Charters
          22        of Democracy, Declaration of Independence,
          23        Constitution of Rights, and the Operation of
          24        Government.  And civic engagement is broadly about
          25        the participation of citizens in the democracy.
00032
           1                   And my responsibility stated on the
           2        Department of Revenue's website is the involvement
           3        of citizens in the -- in the government, but it's
           4        strongly argued that well educated young people
           5        coming through school with good civic education are
           6        more likely to be active and involved in the
           7        government, and so our support for civic education
           8        is linked to our belief that that's an important
           9        component to fulfilling our stated responsibility of
          10        encouraging the participation of citizens in the
          11        government.
          12                   So they're different, but they're closely
          13        related.
          14   Q    You said on the Department of Revenue's website?
          15   A    Is it Finance?  Sorry.
          16   Q    You meant Finance, okay.
          17   A    I misstated.  Department of Finance.
          18   Q    Um-hum.  And did you read the newsletter that was
          19        sent out from your campaign?  Do you review those?
          20   A    I've read them in the last day or two, yes.
          21   Q    Oh, at the time that they're sent they don't go
          22        through you?
          23   A    Depends on the time of the year, which volunteers
          24        are doing it.
          25   Q    So this one in particular, was that one of them?  Do
00033
           1        you know?  Maybe that's not it.
           2                   MR. NOBLES:  I can't find the document
           3        itself.  I think there's an indication from other
           4        documents, but from the document itself I can't
           5        answer that question.  I have one question, though,
           6        about this, or maybe more than one.
           7                   MR. RITCHIE:  Um-hum.
           8                   MR. NOBLES:  We'll finish up here on
           9        these.
          10                   MR. RITCHIE:  Okay.
          11   BY MR. NOBLES:
          12   Q    I guess, first of all, you mentioned that the
          13        Secretary of State's office does not have a
          14        newsletter on civic engagement or civic education
          15        because it would cost money.  But are you aware of
          16        whether or not your website has any information
          17        related to civic education and engagement?
          18   A    Well, the office of Secretary of State, in
          19        fulfilling its mission, has information for
          20        children, so we have some civic education materials
          21        that are usable by children and by teachers, and we
          22        have information about how to register, how to
          23        participate in the process.  So we obviously are
          24        performing part of our responsibility as defined by
          25        the, you know, obligations of the office in that
00034
           1        way.
           2   Q    I'd just note for your consideration, or rebuttal
           3        even, that I actually ran a search of your website
           4        using the words civic education, civic engagement,
           5        and I don't find the program itself.  There were a
           6        couple of hits kind of related to the items that you
           7        just mentioned, but in terms of identifying the
           8        civic education and engagement program itself, the
           9        one that is the subject of this inquiry, it does not
          10        appear, to the best of my knowledge, as such on your
          11        website.
          12   A    Yes.  And at the very first meeting it was stated in
          13        the very beginning that our role was convening so
          14        that the organizations could create an independent
          15        entity to carry the work on.  That was our intention
          16        in the beginning and it in fact will soon be
          17        accomplished.
          18   Q    I want to go back where I started with the quote
          19        from the Star Trib, and I want to ask you about that
          20        in a little different way.  Because rather than deal
          21        with whether or not you said what is recorded here
          22        by Mr. Brunswick, I'm going to ask you directly.
          23                   Do you believe now that it was a mistake
          24        for your campaign to use the contact information to
          25        send out your campaign newsletter?
00035
           1   A    No.  This was a public directory of organizations
           2        who stated their interest in receiving information
           3        about civic education and civic engagement, and this
           4        is a public directory of people who have made that
           5        specific request, and I believe it was appropriate
           6        to send them information about civic engagement and
           7        civic education as they stated their interest.
           8   Q    And do you think the campaign should have checked
           9        with people who were going to receive the newsletter
          10        before they received the newsletter and ask if they
          11        want to receive the newsletter?
          12   A    Our campaign had a policy that did not use the
          13        confirmation tool that's now available where people
          14        can be asked do you want to receive, and we have
          15        made a decision to -- to use that confirmation tool
          16        in the future so that everyone who is expressing
          17        interest is asked to confirm their interest through
          18        that subscription tool, and that will be implemented
          19        before any more newsletters go out.
          20                   About 12,000 people get the newsletter
          21        and two people have objected, and so we want to
          22        respect their concerns, and also make sure that the
          23        12,000 others continue to get civic education and
          24        civic engagement information, but respecting the use
          25        of this new tool, the confirmation tool, as a way to
00036
           1        make sure that there are not two other people who
           2        would object.
           3   Q    I just want to also kind of follow up on Cecile's
           4        questions about your involvement with the newsletter
           5        itself.
           6                   The newsletter, the one at least I'm
           7        holding in my hand, which I think is the one that is
           8        at issue, and you can certainly examine it, but it
           9        is written in the first person.  It is written as if
          10        it were written by you.  It references, and I could
          11        just read parts of this that -- as I visit with my
          12        neighbors across the state, I am...  Are the
          13        personal references there to you?
          14   A    In all the newsletters they're all from me.
          15   Q    And do you write them?
          16   A    I write some of them, other people write some of
          17        them.
          18   Q    Did you write this one?
          19   A    I don't recall, but they're always written in the
          20        first person.
          21   Q    Okay.
          22   A    And they're designed to be personal.  They are
          23        designed to be, you know, very specific, that kind
          24        of information.
          25   Q    Is that your signature?
00037
           1   A    It looks like an electronic signature to me.
           2   Q    Okay.  Do you recall as a part of this newsletter
           3        writing that you wanted people to join you at a
           4        party fundraiser event featuring author and radio
           5        commentator Jim Hightower at the Blodgetts' home?
           6        Did you write that?
           7   A    I don't recall writing the newsletter, and your
           8        statement was to me as I was writing, but I don't
           9        recall that particular section, but it certainly is
          10        part of the newsletter and certainly part of the
          11        information that my campaign sent out to our civic
          12        engagement newsletter list.  Absolutely.
          13   Q    And would you characterize that as a solicitation
          14        for a contribution?
          15   A    Not in my mind.  We send out solicitations for
          16        contributions to our contribution solicitation list
          17        and they are completely different.
          18   Q    It does say, if you cannot make it to this event at
          19        the Blodgett home -- if you cannot make it to this
          20        event, but would like to help me cover my
          21        campaign-related expenses for this year, you can
          22        donate online here, and it's underlined as if you
          23        could click there, I assume that's what that means,
          24        and then it goes on to say, you can still qualify
          25        for the State of Minnesota refund of up to $100 per
00038
           1        couple if you make your contribution in this year.
           2        Is that not a solicitation for a campaign
           3        contribution?
           4   A    It has been stated by two individuals that they
           5        believed they were being solicited for contributions
           6        because of that and I'm not disputing their
           7        statements in that way.
           8   Q    But you would not characterize that as a
           9        solicitation or a campaign contribution?
          10   A    I would not characterize that newsletter as a
          11        campaign contribution solicitation.  Those words at
          12        the bottom of that newsletter do solicit a
          13        contribution.
          14                   MR. NOBLES:  I'm going to move on to our
          15        request, and do you have anything else?
          16                   MS. FERKUL:  No.
          17   BY MR. NOBLES:
          18   Q    Okay.  I want to move on to -- unless there's
          19        anything you want to add?  At the end of all of this
          20        you'll have the opportunity to add anything you want
          21        to add, but, I mean, if there's anything on the
          22        topics that we've covered that you want to add at
          23        this point, certainly take that opportunity.
          24   A    (No verbal response.)
          25   Q    Let's move on, then, 'cause I want to cover the
00039
           1        request that I made to you for information.
           2                   On November the 2nd, 2007 I had a letter
           3        delivered to your office requesting information
           4        about the Secretary of State civic education
           5        program.  When did you become aware of that letter?
           6   A    I do not recall, but I assume it was very soon.
           7   Q    Why do you assume that?
           8   A    I'm in the office every day, except when I'm out of
           9        town on official duties, and official documents are
          10        brought to my attention.
          11   Q    Do you recall reading the letter?
          12   A    Yes.
          13   Q    This is a copy of the letter.
          14   A    Yes.  It was on a different color paper, but
          15        perhaps.
          16   Q    Do you remember noting that the letter specifically
          17        said that you had a legal obligation to respond to
          18        requests for information from the Legislative
          19        Auditor and that the letter cited Minnesota Statutes
          20        3.978, subdivision 2, as a basis for that
          21        obligation?
          22   A    I don't remember those words, but I certainly
          23        remember knowing that and being very clear.  Our
          24        interest is in being very helpful to your office
          25        because determining the status of this information
00040
           1        is very important to our office.
           2   Q    Did you understand when you became aware of the
           3        letter and read it that my request for information
           4        was part of an investigative process?
           5   A    Yes.  It was investigating a complaint from two
           6        citizens.
           7   Q    Did you note that I requested a response by November
           8        the 12th, 2007?
           9   A    I don't recall.
          10   Q    Do you recall when you had any concept or idea of
          11        what my timeline was for receiving your response?
          12   A    I know that I asked that we respond as quickly as
          13        possible and before your timeline, which I believe
          14        we did.
          15   Q    That's correct, I did receive a response signed by
          16        Bert Black on November the 9th.
          17   A    So we were successful in responding before your
          18        requested time.
          19   Q    You were.  And I expressed my appreciation to
          20        Mr. Black.
          21                   Who designated Bert Black as the person
          22        to respond to my request for information?
          23   A    I did.
          24   Q    As a part of a discussion with your staff or just
          25        you individually saying to Bert Black, respond to
00041
           1        this; do you recall?
           2   A    I don't recall.  Bert is the 25-year veteran who is
           3        very efficient and very helpful and very
           4        professional and has a great knowledge of your
           5        office and is extremely committed to being as
           6        helpful as possible to your office and others, so he
           7        is the most appropriate person to respond on that
           8        basis.
           9   Q    But according to Mr. Black's testimony and
          10        referenced by the testimony of other people on your
          11        staff, Mr. Black had no involvement in the civic
          12        education program.  So why would he be an
          13        appropriate person to respond to questions about the
          14        civic education and engagement program?
          15   A    Because he's the most informed about the process of
          16        aiding your office in your investigation.
          17   Q    To what extent were you involved in the preparation
          18        of Mr. Black's response?
          19   A    I read drafts.
          20   Q    Did you specifically review and approve the response
          21        before Mr. Black signed the final version?
          22   A    I was out of town on the 8th and 9th, and if it was
          23        delivered on the 9th I did not read the very final
          24        version, but I certainly read drafts up until the
          25        8th of November.
00042
           1   Q    What prompted you to acknowledge to Mark Brunswick
           2        that you had provided the civic education contact
           3        information to your organization?
           4   A    I spent a lot of time going through and trying to
           5        determine, first, if the allegations that these two
           6        individuals had been placed on my campaign
           7        solicitation list was true or not, I did not believe
           8        it was true, although it was said in the newspapers
           9        and said in documents, and I determined that it was
          10        not true.  I then had to look and see, they came to
          11        a meeting in April, this was November, were they
          12        entered into the list to get the civic engagement
          13        newsletter from our campaign and determined that,
          14        yes, they were.  I then had to determine who entered
          15        them and where did that information come from.  And
          16        once I had that information I was able to provide it
          17        to anyone who was expressing interest.
          18                   From my point of view, getting this
          19        information into the hands of people who are
          20        interested is the most important way I can help you
          21        in your obligations and responsibilities, and
          22        reporters who have their job to do as well.
          23   Q    Looking at it now, and I have it in front of me, the
          24        question that relates to how the contact information
          25        about these two individuals that brought the
00043
           1        complaint, how was it obtained from the Secretary of
           2        State's office, that organization or person who then
           3        used the information to solicit contributions, their
           4        characterization, not yours.
           5   A    Correct.
           6   Q    Solicited contributions from your, Mr. Ritchie's,
           7        campaign fund.  That was what I asked for an
           8        explanation.  The disclosure that you made to
           9        Mr. Brunswick and then subsequently to me in an
          10        e-mail was not a part of the submission I received
          11        from Mr. Black on November the 9th.
          12   A    Can I ask you one question?
          13   Q    Sure.
          14   A    You said that's subsequently to you?
          15   Q    Yes.
          16   A    I do not believe that's true.
          17   Q    We can cover that.  Well, go ahead and tell me --
          18   A    I believe that I wrote you in the morning after I
          19        recovered from my colonoscopy and I wrote to Mark
          20        Brunswick at the end of the day.
          21   Q    Okay.
          22   A    It's interesting that you use the word subsequent.
          23   Q    Well, I received a phone call from Mr. Brunswick
          24        telling me that he had acknowledged -- that you had
          25        acknowledged to him your involvement and I had not
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           1        yet received your e-mail.  It's possible that it was
           2        here, and I certainly -- you know, not having,
           3        frankly, the e-mail that you sent Mr. Brunswick, I
           4        don't know the sequence.  All I know is when I
           5        personally saw your correspondence e-mailed to me,
           6        Mr. Brunswick's call to me telling me that you had
           7        acknowledged to him your involvement came before I
           8        read that e-mail.  So, again, your assertion that
           9        you communicated with me before you communicated
          10        with Mr. Brunswick could be documented by giving me
          11        the e-mail that you sent Mr. Brunswick.
          12   A    Right.
          13   Q    And I would appreciate that.
          14   A    Absolutely.
          15   Q    My --
          16   A    Sorry to interrupt.
          17   Q    No, that's fine.  Because, you know, that has been
          18        an important question for me, and so I --
          19   A    Obviously for me.
          20   Q    So -- so I don't want to dwell on this point too
          21        much, but so the days after, and you said in answer
          22        to an earlier question that you told your staff you
          23        wanted a prompt response to my request --
          24   A    Um-hum.
          25   Q    -- which came on November the 9th.  Your letter,
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           1        your e-mail to me came on the 20th.  Do you consider
           2        that a prompt response to my request for
           3        information?
           4   A    It was the fastest that I could determine the
           5        information and operate in my official duties of
           6        running an election and having a medical procedure
           7        and having to be out for a few days.  It seems
           8        fairly prompt given the amount of information I had
           9        to sort through to be able to provide additional
          10        information.  But your question, how was it
          11        obtained, was answered on the 9th.
          12   Q    Okay.  And that was my -- the question that I was
          13        moving toward, and that is do you now still, even
          14        having supplemented this response of November the
          15        9th with your e-mail of November the 20th, are you
          16        still asserting that this is a full disclosure and a
          17        full response to the information I requested?  Which
          18        was, and I will read it, an explanation of how
          19        contact information about these two individuals was
          20        obtained from the Secretary of State's office by any
          21        organization or person who used it -- used the
          22        information to solicit a contribution from these
          23        individuals.  I mean, I would ask you if this was in
          24        fact, the November the 9th letter, a full
          25        disclosure, why did you write me an e-mail on
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           1        November the 20th?
           2   A    It was a full disclosure of what was known on
           3        November the 9th.  It was obtained at one of the
           4        public events at the State Fair or at the -- through
           5        the e-mail distribution.  I had a personal interest
           6        in finding out if the allegations that these
           7        individuals were placed on a different list was
           8        true, and I had an interest in determining when and
           9        how these individuals expressed their interest and
          10        received my newsletter.  And I put a lot of time
          11        into finding that out and gave you that information.
          12        But the obtaining of the directory, the public
          13        directory, occurred at one of the public
          14        distributions of the public directory.  Either the
          15        State Fair or the --
          16                   MR. NOBLES:  Okay.  We need to shut off
          17        the machine and put in a new tape, so we are going
          18        off the record and shutting off the machine.  It's
          19        about four minutes to 3:00 p.m.
          20                   (Break taken.)
          21                   MR. NOBLES:  So we are back on record
          22        with the tape recorder on and it is approximately
          23        3:00 p.m.
          24                   And, Cecile, I think you wanted to
          25        follow-up, or Mr. Ritchie was --
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           1                   MR. RITCHIE:  I just wanted to say that I
           2        want to be able to go back and review and get those
           3        e-mail documents and get the timing straight.  I was
           4        coming out of surgery, and I want to -- and I will
           5        do that immediately.
           6   BY MS. FERKUL:
           7   Q    In the response that Bert Black prepared and
           8        delivered to us on the 9th, question four, which Jim
           9        had just read.
          10   A    Um-hum.
          11   Q    The response here is that a printed copy of the
          12        directory contact list of organizations and
          13        individuals involved in civic education and
          14        engagement, a public document, was provided to
          15        everyone who attended the meeting on June 22nd as
          16        they registered.  It was also mailed to -- e-mailed
          17        to over 400 people after that meeting and handed out
          18        at the Minnesota State Fair.  It is my
          19        understanding, Bert Black's understanding, that this
          20        is how the directory contact list was obtained.
          21                   In what you subsequently determined, did
          22        you find that to be true?
          23   A    Yeah.
          24   Q    So what did you learn about how the directory
          25        actually came into the hands of someone on your
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           1        campaign?
           2   A    Well, that, in that distribution, nobody got it by
           3        the e-mail method, which was one of the questions
           4        that --
           5   Q    Nobody in your campaign got it through the e-mail?
           6   A    No.  And that these two individuals were not on the
           7        campaign solicitation list, which was what was said
           8        and what was read to me over the phone and that kind
           9        of thing.  That in the string of volunteers who do
          10        different things on my campaign, or you might call
          11        it noncampaign in the course of a nonelection year,
          12        the -- the source of that directory was me after the
          13        June meeting, not anyone before if they were there
          14        in April and they never came again, nor anyone after
          15        the State Fair.  So we determined that and --
          16   Q    So if I understand you, you were saying that when
          17        you received the directory at the June 22nd meeting,
          18        that's when it came into the hands of your campaign,
          19        you as a member of your campaign at that point?
          20   A    Correct.
          21   Q    And then at your direction it was used to distribute
          22        the newsletter?
          23   A    Yeah.  And over the course of the summer and fall at
          24        some point it was keyed in by volunteers, and
          25        this -- I think the date on the newsletter they got
00049
           1        was late October, so sometime between, you know,
           2        June and October it was, you know.  And --
           3   Q    You intended for that?
           4   A    Yeah.  My intention is to send the -- our civic
           5        engagement newsletter to everyone who is interested
           6        in civic engagement, and there's 12,000 people who
           7        get it and have been getting it for a long time, a
           8        lot of them, and to not discriminate, you know.
           9   Q    Your understanding is that your campaign staff --
          10   A    We don't have staff, but --
          11   Q    -- entered the information through data entry and
          12        not through an electronic version?
          13   A    Right, the volunteers did for sure.
          14   Q    Okay.
          15                   MS. FERKUL:  Okay.
          16                   MR. NOBLES:  Is there anything else you
          17        want to add?
          18                   MR. RITCHIE:  I very much appreciate your
          19        taking the time and the careful look at this,
          20        because this has obviously become a -- quite a big
          21        deal.  And I want our office always to be on time
          22        and early and complete and as helpful to you as we
          23        can be, that's our job and our goal.  And I look
          24        forward to working with you over the next, you know,
          25        three and some years, and perhaps longer, and I want
00050
           1        that to be the basis by which we work.
           2                   I feel like I have a very professional
           3        staff who has that commitment, and really skilled,
           4        really skilled, and I rely on them.  And I rely on
           5        you as permanent parts of the skilled public service
           6        that we all share.  You're a permanent kind of
           7        agency, and I'm a temporary occupant, a temporary
           8        employee, a temporary constitutional officer, but I
           9        look forward to having that kind of working
          10        relationship.
          11                   MR. NOBLES:  Good.
          12                   Thank you very much.
          13                   Anything else?
          14                   Then we will turn off the tape, go off
          15        record, it is approximately four minutes past 3:00
          16        p.m.
          17                   (Interview concluded.)
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           1   STATE OF MINNESOTA)
                                 )    ss.
           2   COUNTY OF HENNEPIN)
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           5                     REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
           6
           7
           8                   I, Janet Shaddix Elling, do hereby
           9   certify that the above and foregoing transcript of the
          10   tape-recorded proceeding, consisting of the preceding
          11   50 pages is a full, true and complete transcript of the
          12   tape-recorded proceedings to the best of my ability.
          13                   Dated December 16, 2007.
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                                      JANET SHADDIX ELLING
          18                          Registered Professional Reporter
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